The Truth About Building Brands in Hospitality & Fashion

Alright, everybody, welcome to the "Make Cool Shit" podcast. I'm your host, Drew O'Brien, and today we're sitting down with my friend Jamie Knott. He's a chef, he's an entrepreneur, and he also is a partner with me in our luxury streetwear brand, Sunday Sauce. Jamie owns some of the top restaurants in New Jersey, such as Saddle River Inn, Saddle River Café in Saddle River, New Jersey, if you've noticing a trend here. He also owns and is a partner in Madame and Seller 335 in Jersey City. Let's pop right into it: you and I have built some brands together in your restaurant. Let's make some more cool shit. Right, let's make some more cool shit. And also, we own a clothing company along with our partners, Zach and Catherine. Yeah, at some point we will, right? I mean, it's— Eventually we will have some product out there. It's hard to call it a company when you have $0 in sales, but we all start somewhere, right? It's currently a very expensive hobby. Like, I don't have enough of those already. Thanks, Zach, appreciate that. Yeah, exactly, we all do. When you hear the word "brand," what does that mean to you? Because a lot of people think it means different things. And you own 7 brands. I think it's a representation of yourself and your idea of what that company is and looks like. As an example, now I guess I'm my brand manager, if you will. You know, where I have to lead my life a certain way, develop the people under me a certain way, guide and mentor and train and teach, and— that's what it is to me.

It's more of, you know, who you are and what you want your brand to be and your people to be and what you want people to see when they look at your brand and think about you. That's as easy as I can explain it. I think it sounds complicated in my mind, though. It's a hard question. It's a— And I can't believe you fucking asked me that first question, dude. I appreciate that. It's a very hard question because at Make Cool Shit we get all the time, "Oh, can you build a brand? Can you do this?" But I think the problem is the general public doesn't even know what a brand is, right? The simplest way that I put it is, your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room, right? But you made a very good point, which kind of brings me to this podcast, is there was no such thing as a personal brand 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, right? That's why I have this podcast now. That's why you are out there doing podcasts. That's why you are out there being your own quote-unquote "brand manager." Jamie Knott, whether you want to agree with it or not, is just as much of a brand as all of your restaurants, as Sunday Sauce. Same thing goes for me. Drew O'Brien is just as much of a brand as Make Cool Shit, Sunday Sauce, and Make Cool Shit. You're 100% correct. If you look at it from this perspective, when people walk into one of our restaurants, they're like, "Oh, this is a Jamie Knott restaurant.

It's gotta be—" their expectations are high, right? Which is great, that's what you always wanted, but it's a double-edged sword, you know? But it actually keeps you in line, you know, because your base level is here, right? And the only place you can go from there is up. So you have to keep pushing yourself towards the ceiling. Yeah, I mean, branding is such a tough thing because some people think it just means a logo, or a website, or your color palette, or your menu design. And all that is very true, right? Those are very important things. But your brand is also, if I go out to dinner at Madame with my wife in Jersey City, it's a beautiful atmosphere, and I sit down and your server's a dick, that's also part of your brand. No doubt about it. I mean, you just ruin the experience. Exactly. And you touch on a really strong point. I mean, it's— people remember how they felt. Food, service, ambiance, mega important. How you feel when you leave, the most important. You know? Did I feel good? Did I feel special? Did I feel part of? Was I actually really taken care of this evening? That's what hospitality is. You know? But that's a very good point because I think in a brand, it needs to evoke an emotion. Oh, I wanted to go back for a second. I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought, but I got it back. So your brand evolved. And the way you brand people evolved too. You just named 6 or 7 things. When you first started, there's no shot in

hell those things were in your mind to build somebody's brand. No shot. You thought it was a logo too. You look at Nike, you're like, "Yeah, the swoosh, that's your brand," right? Like— Yeah. Or that's what I thought. But Nike's just about action, right? That's what the swoosh is. Just do it. I mean, it's clear as day, right? Just get the fuck up and do it. Yeah, there's this— you are 100% correct, by the way. When I first started this company in 2017, I was doing the cheapest logo I could get, I was doing any type of website I could get, and I was just like, "Alright, let me make it dope, make no mistake," but I wasn't thinking about the business strategy that goes into a brand. Well, everybody starts somewhere, right? Like, you know, even us with sauce. In the background, nobody has any idea what it's taken to get to this point, right? And it seems like we're nowhere yet. Yeah. We have some samples that we rock, you know? But it's like, we're this close. But then again, we're this far away because we have to build that brand. We have no brand recognition. Nobody's ever heard of it. Nobody understands it. Will we have a little bit of local clout in certain areas? Because we have a partner in Brooklyn, you know, two of us live in Jersey. Like, yes. But our friends and family are not our core customers. Absolutely, yeah. And if you rely on that to be the people who are going to make you wealthy, close shop before you even sign a lease.

Yeah, you made a good point, right? So bringing us into Sunday Sauce, it's a brand that Zach and I originally started. It had a different name. Then you came in, and now we have Catherine, our fourth and final partner in the business. But we get people that reach out to us all the time at Make Cool Shit, clients that want us to build their apparel brand, right? And we had so many clients at Make Cool Shit that we were finally like, "Hey, let's do it ourselves." And it's something that I always wanted to do. I love Make Cool Shit, but I never wanted to build Make Cool Shit as a business. I always wanted to have my own apparel brand. So when Zach and I started, at the time it was called The Spoils, what made you want to come in with Zach and I and start the now newly named Sunday Sauce? I've just— I've always loved design. And you can tell them a little bit about Sunday Sauce as we go back and forth, but since day one, I wanted to have the conversation to change the name because I thought it was, you know, I'm in the restaurant business, and something that's spoiled is bad, right? So I had a negative connotation in my mind from Jump Street, but I'm getting ahead of myself. When what made me want to join The Spoils and later Sunday Sauce was the opportunity for design, you know, to spread my wings and do something different. If you're not— if you're not getting income from 2 or 3 different sources at this point in your life, you can only live a certain level.

And I don't want to live at that level. I don't want to worry about how much the dinner bill is or can we go on vacation in the summer. Like, those things, I want them to be automatic. And that might sound shallow in a sense, but— Not at all. New Jersey is an expensive place to live, and people don't comprehend that because they see social media and everything's free and easy, right? Good luck. Good luck. Get out there and get it. I have 3 kids, you know, we have 5 cars. Like, it just— it's never-ending. Just go get health insurance and a house and a couple of cars. You know what I mean? And then talk to me about it after. Yeah, and— And just look at that monthly note. Yeah, and then tell me you want to go out to dinner 3 nights a week. That's cool. Good luck. Have fun. Yeah. Go make some cool shit. And maybe you will. You made a really good point, right? At Sunday Sauce, what would you say has been our biggest hurdle? Because I want to specifically speak to all the apparel designers out there and everybody that wants to start their own apparel brand. Most of the time, people don't really truly understand what goes into it, and I'm not even talking about financially. Financially, it is a wildly expensive business to start, and it is a very, very competitive business to be in, right? Especially now. I mean, anybody can go online and make a t-shirt and start selling it, you know? But we're trying to— What's been

the biggest hurdle? There's 2 hurdles for us, right, in my mind. Number 1, manufacturing. Where, how, who, what are you about? You know, because once it comes down to it, everybody thinks, "Oh, they want 100% Pima cotton, they want to go eco-friendly, they want to be in a place where they have the best practices," right? As far as their staff and their cleanliness and their warehouse and their, you know, manufacturing plants. That's cool. Then you get into the pricing of it, and you're like, "It costs $47 to make a fucking t-shirt?" Yeah. That you want a small, little, simple design on? Or something that's elegant or different? That's why clothes are so expensive. Especially men's clothes, right? Like, for what they are, pound for pound. Correct. You know? And then you start looking at pricing. You're like, "Where are we putting ourselves in the market? We're coming in with— nobody knows anything about us, and we're just going to come out from Jump Street and have a $200 hoodie?" Like, that's ballsy. That goes back to the brand, though. That goes back to the brand. No, it goes back to the brand. We're not there yet, though. Couldn't agree more. We're not there yet. We will get there indefinitely. I know that based on our foundation, our core values, and our partnership. I mean, I think we have— I think we have 4 of the strongest people in such different areas that it's really unique. And I'm excited.

I still get the goosebumps when we talk about it. I know it's dragged on a little bit over the past 3 months. It's dragged on more than we all would like, but that's— Well, that brings me to our second challenge: time. There is not enough time. And the 4 of us have our own careers. The way that we put food on the table, right? So this is a secondary or ancillary, hopefully, income producer at some point. But until that point, all we're doing is just— we're just putting money into it. And we're learning as we go along. And we have some strategic partners that already know a lot about the business, right? I mean, look at Kat. Without her, who were we? We were floating around in the ocean. Now at least we have a raft. Yeah, I mean— You know? Catherine not only brought a woman's perspective, obviously. Right. That goes to that saying, but her expertise is bar none. And going back to just willy-nilly starting a clothing company, right? Currently, everybody and their mother and their brother and their sister and their cousin has a brand, right? But I think Catherine was telling me some— and don't fact-check me here— but something crazy where, like, only 3% of all clothing companies get above $1 million, right? Which is a lot of money, but in reality, it's not that much selling. Of course, I have to pick the 2 hardest businesses on planet Earth, right? I was— so I was— that brings me to my next question. You are in— you're essentially in the margin business in both of your businesses.

But you are in the restaurant business, which is top 3 hardest spaces to be in, and you are in the clothing company business, whatever level you want to put that at. How does your creativity differ from your chef in the kitchen versus being one of the people in creating Sunday Sauce? That's a really good question, but I think the parallels are— they just line up, right? I mean— It doesn't change, is what you're saying. I don't think it does change. It's a certain side of your brain. It's— when you see something that's aesthetically pleasing, you go with it. And it's funny how much our clothing has changed since we first sat down and put pen to paper. The first time I was in your office for 3 days. It's still being changed to this second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, but it's now it's a matter of an eighth of an inch, right, on a stitch or the design we want, right? And what style we want in the printing. But we were at a point where, you know, we went wild for a little bit because we were almost playing catch-up, but we didn't realize what the timeframe actually looks like. If we decide tomorrow to go to print, we can get our hats relatively quickly. Our clothing? I mean, we have to already be thinking about next spring, next winter, next fall. It's actually— it's crazy. You know, nobody knows that. You made a good point. I, as a designer, struggled in the beginning when we were starting The Spoils/Sunday Sauce. I felt like we were tracing— we were chasing trends.

Yes. Right? Versus relying on our taste. Yes. Right? So in the world of AI. And almost seeing what's next. Exactly. In the world of AI, specifically in my space, the design space, people are panicking about AI, right? And what I say all the time is, AI is just a tool, right? AI is a chef's knife, right? It's all about how you use it. However, you need to have taste in order to make the AI look good. If you don't trust your own taste, then the AI doesn't matter. The AI is just outputting what you put in, right? So in both clothing and in both your restaurant, hospitality, food, all of that, you need to very much rely on your— in your case, actual taste in terms of your palate and your aesthetic taste. So as a designer, I'm very powerful now and confident now about my taste and what I know will look good because that's what I have to be confident about. You're market-tested. I am market-tested. You've built enough where you actually get to see and visit, right? I love what you do on social when you say brands in the wild. You actually get to go see your brands on a daily basis if you want, you know? Not just in the restaurant business, all over. Because you've built a ton at this point, and your base foundation level is here now. Like, where you're starting off based on your knowledge and what you've seen yourself create and do and your team, I mean, you can't go down from there. Yeah, you can only go up. To your point, I'm the same way.

I don't— I want multiple revenue streams. I'm not embarrassed to say that I want to be financially free because not only for me, but I want to be able to help out other people. But going back to taste, how do you know when you have a fucking rock-solid dish, right? At Saddle River Inn, I would say that's your flagship, if you will, restaurant, right? Yeah, it's my first. It's my baby. It's my dream. Also, how can I get a reservation? Good luck. Yeah. It's for everybody listening outside of New Jersey, it is booked up from now until Valentine's Day 2028. It's funny. No, it's not. Stop it. You're making me blush. I just opened a text message, and it's from the mayor of Saddle River asking for a reservation for the mayor of Hohokis. And then in the bottom, he gives me, like, this recipe that he tried in Switzerland. It's so funny. Like, the things people say and do and try, it's just dinner. Like, yes, it's special. I know that. And I'm not diminishing what we do there. But when you create scarcity in the market, right, you can do that on any level in any business. Look at the diamond, you know, De Beers, right? They created this scarcity in the market. Yeah. They have 96% of the share. Look what happened. Then you have lab-grown come into play. I was on 47th Street last week, which is the jewelry district, the diamond district. Well, same thing with these, right? It's all lab. Yeah. It's all lab now. They're like, "Don't waste your time, don't waste your money, don't

waste," you know? And it's going to be that way for at least 5 years. But it used to be a vanity play. Like, "Look at me. Look what I—" you know? "Look what I have." Well, same thing happened with the Rolexes, right? You and I are both wearing one right now. That's not to brag. It's more so they totally changed how accessories are worn, right? And that goes, once again. It's a mental play, right? It's a mental play, and it's a brand, right? No doubt. It goes back to, I personally don't have a Rolex to say that I have a Rolex. I have a Rolex to show other people the amount of time that I put in in order to acquire a Rolex. But also. You just embodied Phil right now. I did embody Phil. I did embody Phil. I truly felt Mr. Santos come through you at that moment in time. And he will also be on the pod at some point. But the question is, is that my own original thought, or did Rolex put that thought in my head through their brand? I think it's built over time in your circle as well, right? It's a status symbol. It's a show to yourself of hard work that I can do this. Yeah. I can do this. And when you have that stuff around you, it makes you want to do more and shoot higher. You know, it's— you got to celebrate all the victories, right? Small and large. I learned that from— I learned that from Phil too.

It's really hard for me to celebrate the small victories. And I'm not talking throwing myself a party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, just being like, "Hey, look what we did. We did this." It's very— Let's do more of this. Very difficult for me to— This feels really good. Yeah. You know, it's funny. The flip— the script has been flipped, right? You were on the pod on the other side of things. Production, right? Chop meat that Phil kicked me out of. We were— We'll make sure to talk about that in episode 8 whenever Phil shows up. Whenever he's on. And he's not going to say that. He's going to spin it in some positive guru bullshit way, but— but we— you know, we've come full circle. We had the pod, you were on it, you were producing it, doing the background, right? The editing. Then we went, we got a studio, we tried to do it for real, and, you know, here we are now, and I'm on— I'm on Front Street with you. I'm the first guest by default, by the way. And I know that, so. I want to make it clear that's not true. But also, things have aligned in a perfect way because I was the first guest on Chop Meat. There was never a co-host, right? So I kind of created my position, and I never signed a contract. So that's my own fault, you know? Yes. And after episode 8, I started paying

for the studio, so. I promise that won't happen here at the Make Cool Shave podcast. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Once I kill it on episode 1, you're going to be like, "Dude, you want to come in every 3 episodes?" And then we'll split it. Listen, we'll just get another chair. Exactly. We could do that. Going back to— I think they have another microphone too. Somewhere. I mean, they have a lot here. All right. We have Bri, our social media manager here in-house. What's up, Bri? Going back to creativity, right? This is something that every creative deals with. They just don't like to talk about it openly. How do you deal with imposter syndrome? Oh. Because— I don't want to say the true answer. Because I need some advice, right? Because, I mean, obviously— Dude, I get it all the time. Yeah. I'm at a point where I— I'm nervous to walk in my places sometimes. It's like that. Hold on. Expand on that. What do you mean by that? Because to the outside world, you are a highly decorated chef, you're an entrepreneur, you have these wildly successful restaurants, and then you are the head of the ship, if you will, and now you go into the— you go into the back kitchen and you have your sous chef there, right? What do you mean by that? Sometimes you're embarrassed to walk into your own kitchen because that's a wild thing to say to somebody who might not think that. I know. It's crazy, right? To get to that point in your brain.

But you brought up imposter syndrome, so I think— I think it's more like I'm in the way sometimes now. You know, which is good and bad. It's a testament to what you built. It is, but however, I want to be a bigger part of it. So where do I go? You know, I'm spatially challenged. I'll use Saddle River Inn as an example. It is one quarter of the size of this room that we are in. Small kitchen. It is a very small kitchen. I've been in it. It's very small. Yes. It's like 360 square feet, and there's 7 people and equipment. So it gets smaller every day. There's almost not a place for me to stand. And then there's the— You're not even saying figuratively. You're saying literally. Literally, there's no place for me to stand unless I stand in a fucking garbage can next to the fish station or in the middle sink. Yeah. You know? But— and then there's the intimidation factor. Like, let's say I have a new cook or, you know, one of my chef de cuisines just gets nervous when I'm in the kitchen. You know, and then it changes the flow of the restaurant, and then it changes the way he thinks about what he's doing, and then it changes the way— it's hard. But that's not imposter syndrome. No, that's not. But that's just a different thought that I have as I roll through the thoughts in my mind. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. You know? We could do a whole episode, by the way, on

imposter syndrome as creatives. I'm glad you brought it up because I'm like, "Am I the only one?" Like, does everybody do that? No, every— people don't admit it, but every— where's my camera? Every single. That's your camera. Designer, creative, art director, chef, anybody that does anything from a creative standpoint, if you are telling me that you don't have imposter syndrome, then you are just an absolute fucking liar. Because we all do. It comes with the territory. I guess that makes me feel a little better. But the crazy part is that after I go in and I spend 4 hours and we have a, you know, a great service and I talk to the guests and I'm elated. I'm back to where I was, where I thought I wanted to be when I was a young cook. The only difference is the higher you move up, the less you get to cook, it feels like. You know, you almost— you almost push yourself out of the kitchen in a sense. So I think you are— what you're trying to say is how I deal with it is when I think I'm building a website, a logo, or a t-shirt design, whatever it is, right? And I say to myself, "Oh, that looks like something that Balenciaga might have," or whatever. I always go back to the process, right? All the brands that you and I built together, we did it by hand. So I go back to drawing. Because digitally, you could— you have so much content flipping around where you're like, you don't even know what— you don't even know where you saw these things anymore. You're just in an endless, mindless scroll, right?

So it's like, okay, if you go back to the drawing board, for you, if you go back to being in the kitchen, whether it's in your actual restaurant or like, okay, how did I learn how to cook? Like, why the fuck did I do this in the first place? For me, I kind of go back to that drawing aspect, by-hand aspect, because now in AI and now in restaurants, when everyone's copying everyone's food, and AI, when all the design is starting to look the fucking same, it's like, I know I'm being original if I knew I drew this by hand. Because no one could then take that from me. Right? That logo on your hat, you've seen the sketches, right? So at the end of the day, that doesn't mean it makes the imposter syndrome go off. It feels like I was in the office when you drew it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? It doesn't mean the imposter syndrome goes away, but how I try to get rid of it is by going back to the original process of, like, the kid who sat on his parents' kitchen table and started to draw. Like, that's the only way I feel comfortable. And then it goes away for, like, an hour. And then it creeps back in in an hour. Do you ever just draw? So one of my questions here was, when was the last time you, like, just created something for fun? So my problem with drawing and painting— I used to paint. I went to college for fine art. Like, that's what I thought I was going to do.

I thought I was going to be a painter. My problem is I turn everything into a business. When's the last time you painted? I painted a picture for Catherine. I painted an abstract piece for Catherine that's hanging in her house. That was the last time— that was, like, 4 years ago, by the way. Oh, yeah, 4 years ago. Like, I don't do anything creatively for fun, which is a problem. It's sad. It's really sad, right? When was the last time you cooked a meal for, outside of, like, a holiday? Everybody asked me the same thing. You don't cook for yourself at home every day? It's like. Yeah. I completely understand why you don't. Yeah. It's like, I'm not going home and, like, drawing again or, like, on the computer building websites in my free time. You know what I mean? I'm not building brands for fun. There's another question in there that you didn't ask is, what about when you get creatively drained? You know, how do you fill that cup? I mean, at a certain point, you're just like, you're almost robotic. Like a roadblock, a creative block? Yes. We're going to go back to my athletic side, my athlete side for— it's an inside joke. I knew this guy was going to bring it up. It's an inside joke. For the record, you can't even throw a piece of paper in a fucking garbage can, okay? Let's just be clear on the athletic side of Drew. Agree to disagree. But me personally, what I do when I'm in a block, and

I recommend this to everybody, even if you're not a runner, is I will go on something as small as, like, a 3-mile run. Well, you know what? I take that back. You are an athlete. You just ran a marathon. I couldn't fucking do it if I tried. I would love to. I said I'm going to do it. I think I'm going to do it. As I approach— I'm 45 now. I'm on camera here. I said I would never run the marathon again. And if my wife is watching this, she's going to be pissed off at me. The only way I'll run the 2026 marathon is if you run it. Can we shoot for 27, or is that just me being a P-word? No, it's 2026 or nothing. Because I can't go— I can't take a break. 26 or nothing? 26? I'm not going to say I'm doing it right here, right now. Me, you, and Ryan DeParcio will hold hands. There's too many fucking cameras in my face for me to say that because. Listen, I'm just saying, that's the only way I would do it. But for me, going back to the creativity, when I'm doing something— like, when I'm running, I'm not on a phone call. I'm not texting. I'm not— my brain is shut off, right? So that's why I have some crazy ideas for Sunday sauce to create some apparel. That's when I know how to draw and build something different because my brain is shut off. That's your clarity, right? It's the clarity. And then you— And your freedom.

Correct. And then you get this little runner's high, right, a little bit after it. And then— but here's the big thing, and I can only speak for me. If you don't capture that idea, if you go on a 10-mile run and you had an idea in mile 1, that was genius. You forget it. Then you forget it and it doesn't matter, right? So you need to be able to capture that. Other people go to the gym, they work out, they do different things. I know some people meditate. I do that as well. I try to meditate, but my brain is, like, psychotic, so meditating is not that easy for me. But creative blocks are very real, right? Creative pushing your boundaries is hard to do, right? Especially when you get to your level, like you in the kitchen or my level with me in design, it's like, okay, what more can we do? The answer is a shit ton more that we could do, but sometimes we might feel like that. So we're like, oh, should we try this brand new thing? Right? I'm making it up. I don't know if you do this or not, but, like, I watch Top Chef and all these shows all the time with my wife. I have no fucking idea what they're doing. But there's this girl using, like, these tools and all this shit I never heard of, like, vacuum sealing and all this stuff, right? Like, do you try something new? When you see what other people are doing there, do you get out there or do you just kind of stay within

your creativity? We'll do new things. We have to do some new things, new techniques. But I'm pretty rooted in classic stuff, to be honest. All of your restaurants are kind of like that. Like, you have American classic restaurants and then you have, like, French bistro classic restaurants. Is that fair to say? Sure. I don't even know what category to put Saddle River Inn anymore. I feel like it's an Italian steakhouse now. When I opened it, it was, like, ultra fine dining, fucking cauliflower four ways on a plate. You know what I mean? Like. With the spoon splatter. Yeah. That's just not what my audience came to be. But. And I learned that really quickly because when we opened, my wife was pregnant with our third kid. We were in a new house with two cars in the driveway, and you're not working for yourself. But you have to get out of your. Pause. That was the most powerful thing that you said here today, right? One of my questions was, like, people don't realize what it takes to build any type of business, right? I'm not building my companies for myself either, but people that build it for themselves. By the way, it took me a really long time to figure that out, by the way. Yeah. Like, a decade. Your bills just weren't high enough. Yeah, exactly. You probably didn't have your daughter yet. Well, me having my daughter 20 months in now to being a new dad, my mindset has changed. Oh, it's. But I wanted to stop you there because that was

such a powerful statement because you're right. You're not building it for you. You're building it for your family. You're building it for your staff. How many times have you paid your staff and not yourself? You know what I mean? Listen, too many to count, but yes, you're doing it for them, but you're doing it for your guests, for me, for the end user. Correct. We're doing it for the clients. You're doing it for the guests. Right. I had to learn what they wanted. You know? I didn't go to work to cook for myself. I went to work to cook for the people who came in to eat. And that's how simple I keep it. Is that why you think it's— I know we were joking around about the reservations, but is that why you think it's so booked up and why people continue to go there? You know. Because you're not— correct me if I'm wrong— you're not massively changing the menu every single day like some restaurants. You haven't redesigned the inside space in a while. Look at Four Charles. It's arguably the most popular restaurant in New York, right? Besides Corner Store and 86 Club, which are both relatively new from the same company and relatively the same size, but a smaller footprint, classic design, classic food, amazing service, and hospitality up front. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. No. So the core menu stays the same. And we just roll with specials, you know, based on seasonality. And then in the season, we'll change the garnish and the sauce. As an example, this is not what it is, but now we'll use cranberries

and apples on a pork chop. You know, like, because that's what's growing around us. That's what the season is. Very simple stuff like that. Small tweaks. But people come to find that it's their own, right? They really take, like, ownership in the restaurant. Well, especially you. You have so many regulars that go there. Listen, we have people who sit at the same table the same time the same day every week for 10 years. Except when they're on vacation. Which is incredible. Oh, it's like rayos in that sense. You know? It's like a. Does that give you chills when, like, you really say that out loud? Because sometimes I feel like going back to what you said earlier, you don't celebrate the little wins, right? Right. That's a massive win. And I'm not even saying financially that this couple every Tuesday night at 8 p.m. is there. Right. Whatever. Because they, yes, they've paid you a shit ton of money over the years. Right. But building a company and building a brand that is able to make someone else feel that way and want to go to your restaurant every single week, they've probably had everything on the menu five times, right? So that is. I mean, they even create their own menus at this point. Correct. You know? That's such a win for that restaurant. It is. By the way, any restaurant, any client, any type of company, if you have the people wanting to come back, but more importantly, needing to come back, right? That's what I think separates mediocre brands with the great brands is it's not a

want, it's a need. I'm sure you do the same thing on a smaller level. When I find a t-shirt or a pair of jeans that I like, I buy it in every color. Yeah. I have these jeans in every single color, yeah. Same thing. I wear these page jeans. I have them in six colors. Like, I just— that's what I want. That's what I like. That's what I'm comfortable with. I have the same underwear. I have one pair of underwear, 100 pair of them. Does that make sense? You're like the cartoon character when you open up the dresser. It's just the same thing over and over. Yeah, but it makes it easy, right? Yeah, yeah. That's an old Steve Jobs trick. Not that I wear the same uniform every day, but I'm pretty much black on black at this point. I mean. It's, you know, it's just an easy decision, right? Correct. It's only what kind of— what shoes am I putting on? And am I wearing a hat today? By the way, Drew forced me to wear this sauce hat, and I just, you know, I'm a little upset because I have the most special head of hair, I would say, on the East Coast at this point. But, you know, that's neither here nor there. I'd like to disagree, but Jamie does have a good— does have a good head of hair. Good's an understatement, but we'll leave it at that. So after you just, you know, gave yourself a compliment, let's. I knew you weren't going to.

Let's flip it. Let's scale it back a little bit. By the way, I would have given you a compliment on your hair if you didn't wear the hat. That's 100% for sure. Yeah, that's cute. You forced me to wear the hat, but. No, you said you had a hat, and I said I'll wear the shirt. Okay, you got it. Just to be clear, audience. Drill Brian wins again. We had to make sure we didn't wear the same uniform on the podcast. It's all good. What has been your biggest regret from a creative standpoint? From a creative standpoint? Not in your personal life. Okay. In your professional life. I can answer this now. I could not have answered this a year ago. And I don't want to take away anything from any other restaurant concept that we have. But from a scalability, profitability, and knowing what you're getting yourself into. Purely from a business standpoint. Purely from a business standpoint, I wish I had taken Saddle River Inn and opened it in 10 of the wealthiest demographics across the country and just strictly mimicked it. You wish you pseudo-franchised SRI? I don't know that it's a franchise, but I just know that it does work and it can work and it. So why can't you then? I can now. But, you know, you asked me for a regret to date. Gotcha. Okay. To today, that's what I would look back on. Even, you know. Why is that a regret is maybe what I should have asked.

The only reason I can give you is this. When we opened the inn and it finally was successful, by the way, it took almost four years. I was, you know, I didn't have a cop to piss in or a window to throw it out of. You're an overnight success, man. Don't worry about it. No, I know. Everybody, yeah. Yeah. Must be nice. Must be nice. It is fucking nice. Go work two jobs since you're 14 and then work 96 hours a week when you open your first business and tell me how you feel. And then go home and paint and fall asleep on a ladder because you just moved into your house and you have fucking three kids. Yeah. Anyway, that's my rant. But social media, you just have a nice car. That's it. You know what I mean? I don't think I ever put my car on social media. I know. I'm just saying, like, social media makes it seem like, oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. I went from zero to a million in three months. Of course. Oh, he's in Barcelona. Oh, he's in Ibiza. Yeah. Oh, he's in Paris. Yeah. You know? Anyway. Oh, so here's what it is. It's a gift and a curse. The fact that Saddle River Inn was my first restaurant is amazing. I can't say enough good about it. It's set my family up well. We don't have to worry about certain things. Thank God I'm blessed and highly favored. But it gave me the wrong idea about

what a restaurant is because I expected all of them to do that. Interesting. So it's more so the concept of, you know, when you're younger, as a kid, they teach you if you fail, try again. But they don't necessarily teach you. If you succeed, try again? What happens after you succeed on your first actual time doing it, right? Because that's kind of what you did. I understand more than anybody that day one when you opened, you didn't make X amount of dollars per year. No. You made significantly less than what you're making now. You're just, you're a kid with a dream. But once you hit that mark at the four-year point. Right. You maybe had a misconception on what being in your industry was, and then you could correct me if I'm wrong, but then you open up some of the other spots and you realize it's not as easy as round one was. Yes. Not that round one was easy. Correct. It was, yeah, yes, yes. To the outside public. Round one was very hard, but round one had a base to build from. So for those who don't know, Saddle River Inn opened in 1981 by Hans and Imelda Egg. And I bought it from them in 2012. But they had a baseline. They did 900,000 a year. So as long as I kept it the same, I was just a shade under a million, and then we could grow it from there, right? But, you know, I'll talk to servers still to this day because we're still growing, thank God. We just opened Sundays five weeks ago. And, you know, it filled up

instantaneously. Well, especially in Bergen County. That's huge because not a lot of spots. And I don't, I know why I didn't do it for so long, but I don't know why I didn't do it for so long. But you also did it now because you're not in the kitchen every day. I'm working on my business, not in my business. And yes, but also, you used to be in the kitchen every single day. I was. And you needed it, as a human being, you needed a day off. I was tied to the stove for seven years. I'll tell you, I didn't even take a day off. Two things. One, kidney stones. Saddle River has the hardest water in the country. I figured that out the hard way. I used to drink out of the faucet for the first, I don't know, 30, 60, 90 days. When you're on the line, you wash your hands, it's right there, whatever. Just grab a cork and chug it. And I found out the hard way. I woke up at like 3:00 in the morning, like 100 days after we opened, with the worst pain of my life. I felt like somebody shot me from the back with like a bow and arrow. We went to the emergency room. It's, I don't know if, have you ever had a kidney stone? No, but from what I've heard, I am deathly afraid of it. It's just a pain you can't describe to somebody unless they get it. I'm sure. You can't stand up. You can't sit down.

You want to vomit the whole time. It's all encompassing. You think you're going to shit your pants. It's just, it's just the most awful thing on the planet. It's like giving birth. That's how they describe it. It's like giving birth through your urethra for a guy. Sorry to be so graphic and disgusting. No, I'm just, listen, I can't speak on giving birth. I've seen what happens. I can't. Yeah, it's. I don't think it's comparable. Birth to a kidney stone. That's what they say. Okay. I don't know who they are. I haven't taken my own poll. I'm just going to trust they. We'll go with what they say. Yes. Anyway, I get there at 3:30, 4:00 in the morning, and all I'm thinking about is my prep list by 10 o'clock. So I finally get out of there. They bust it up with a laser. They give me Uremax, whatever, to open my ureters. I'm drinking cranberry juice, basically, by the gallon. They get me rehydrated. I'm throwing up left and right in those little airplane fucking bags that you can barely fit your mouth on. My wife's laughing. You're in the kitchen. No, no, no. I was in the, I'm still in the hospital at this point. Okay, okay. I'm sorry. My wife's laughing at me, basically, because she's like, you're just being a total lunatic as if you're possessed by a demon. Like, you and I both know I'm possessed by many demons, but that's not what

this is right now. Correct. Let's deal with the problem at hand. So around noon, I call my sous-chef. I'm like, Josh, I'm fucked up, dude, but I'm going to be there. So 2:30, I get in my car and I drive to work. Like, I don't have an option to miss. There's nobody who's going to do what I'm doing because we're brand new. But that's. I don't even know what the fuck I'm doing yet. But that's what non-business owners can't comprehend. That's just one example. No, I know. But I'm sure you have thousands of those types of examples. I do. I do. Right? So. You ever wear a diaper to work? I have not, and nor will I ever. If I have to wear a diaper, I will be working from home that day. You're going to have to clip that. Yeah. No. Whether good or bad, I don't know. By the way, I'm kidding. I've never worn a diaper to work. But the point is, if you had to, you would. There's no thought. That's it. There's no thought behind it. Right. People don't know what it takes to. Automatic, yeah. To get 40 grand before payroll by Friday. You know what I mean? Like, whatever the numbers are. Yeah. People don't put into perspective every single thing that goes into starting a business, especially when you start it from scratch. Of course not. Right? So on that note, the last question I like to ask everybody is, what's your biggest fuck it, let's do it moment, one risk that changed

everything for you? It's got to be the inn. So I didn't have, I didn't have a nickel. I borrowed 325,000 from my dad. Shout out, Dad. He took it out of his life insurance. He's a dentist. He's a retired dentist. He's like, I know you're super talented. I've been to every restaurant that you've worked at. I love you. I trust you. Please don't lose my money. I'm a dentist. By the way. I don't know how to make money any other way. That's love. 100%. Without him, there is no Saddle River Inn. And he's since been paid back, and things are good, thank God. But we just got in there and threw everything away, really. Like, all the old flowers, chairs, tables. We filled up a 20-yard dumpster in 10 minutes, I think. We didn't buy any piece of equipment in the kitchen. We didn't have any money for it. We redid the bathrooms. Dad's bank account was totally out. No, he wrote me a check and said, figure it the fuck out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I want $5,000 a month until I'm paid back 425,000. That was our agreement. Yeah. Smart dad. And that's what we did. I think I actually offered him that. So he liked the return on his investment. He said yes. And here we are, 13 years later. Why did you decide to take that risk? You could have just kept working for other people. Yes, I could have.

At that point, I was a corporate chef in the city, arguably making good money, you know, with a secure, solid job in a secure company. And I would see the P&Ls. I always sat in on the P&L meetings. And the top line would be like. That'll get you. Would be like management fee, 25 grand, management fee, 35 grand, management fee, 40 grand. Guess what? I don't want to be the fucking management fee. How's the only way I can get myself to be there is to give myself the opportunity, right? So I guess that's where it is. That's where the big money lies. You know, but that's where the big risk lies as well. It's easy to get up and go to work for somebody every day. Choose your heart. Choose your heart. Choose your heart, bro. That's very true. That's it. Where can people find you if they want to reach out to you personally, professionally, in any type of way? Hit me on Instagram, not.jamie. I want to give out my cell phone number if anybody needs help with food. You know, food insecurity is a big thing right now, and I have to speak to it a little bit, and I'm probably going to do a video right after this. I sit on the board of directors for Table to Table, and I don't know if you guys are aware, but SNAP has taken away a lot of food from a lot of people, and there's children going hungry every day, and there's no reason. We have plenty of product, plenty of resources, and

you guys could just think about it yourselves in your own refrigerators where you buy something and you're like, I'm going to make chicken cutlets on Tuesday. You either forget to throw it in the freezer on Wednesday or you throw it in the fucking garbage. It's really sad. And that's something that's near and dear to my heart. But to that end, not.jamie, hit me up if you're hungry. Where can people. I can feed you on every level. Where can people donate to your costs? Table to Table. There's an app. Shout out, Joey Maza. Go to the app store and download Table to Table. You have a car, you have 20 minutes. You can go bridge the gap and pick up some food and bring it to a pantry in a local neighborhood, and it'll tell you exactly what to do. It's really changed a lot for us because we only have so many trucks and so many drivers and so much time in a day, right? That goes to show you how much food waste there is that we can't even pick up. Yeah, it's. The excess on a daily basis for a company that's basically a logistical food company. That's what Table to Table is. How to get food from A to B. Yeah, and I think people in our space are quote-unquote privileged where, to your point, we don't realize how much food we're throwing out. We don't realize how much that we could be donating to other people. It's actually unbelievable. I mean, even supermarkets, right? They date and label things that don't

need, they need labels. They don't need dates. You know, who's going to tell an apple when it's bad if it's still good? Like. Exactly. You know what I mean? How do you have an expiration date on something like that? You know, so anyway, I don't want to ramble on. I just want to bring a little bit of, I want to bring a little bit of knowledge and importance to this subject. I think it's. It's very important. On that note, hit up Jamie personally at not.jamie, and that's a wrap on the first episode of the Make Cool Shit podcast. We'll see you guys next week.